Season 4 Episode 6 – Voices of the War: Fighting in the Desert” with Walt Ehlers and Gerhard Hennes

World War II On Topic Podcast Series

About the Episode

This is World War II On Topic: Veteran Voices. This episode is brought to you by the Museum’s Jenny Craig Institute for the Study of War and Democracy.

At the 2012 International Conference on World War II, we were privileged to listen to a conversation between renowned author Rick Atkinson and WWII veterans Walt Ehlers and Gerhard Hennes.

Ehlers served in the 3rd Infantry Division of the US Army in North Africa. He then served with the 1st Infantry Division in Normandy, where he performed actions that were later awarded the Medal of Honor.

Hennes was in the German Afrika Korps and was captured in North Africa, becoming a prisoner of war for the remainder of the war.

If you would like to view the original conversation, you can see it here:

Catch up on all episodes of World War II On Topic and be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform.

Topics Covered in this Episode

  • North Africa
  • European Theater of Operation
  • Prisoner of War
  • Erwin Rommel

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Featured Historians & Guests

Walter Ehlers

Ehlers served his country in World War II, earning the Medal of Honor for his actions at Normandy. He continued that service for the rest of his life through his work with the Veterans Administration.

Gerhard Hennes

Hennes, as a German officer, was captured in May 1943 while in North Africa.

Rick Atkinson

Atkinson is a Pulitzer Prize winner. His works include An Army at Dawn: The War in North Africa, 1942–1943, The Day of Battle: The War in Sicily and Italy, 1943-1944, The Guns at Last Light: The War in Western Europe, 1944–1945, and many more.

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Sponsors

"World War II On Topic" is made possible by The Herzstein Foundation.

Transcript

Jeremy Collins 

Welcome to our latest episode of World War II On Topic, Veteran Voices. I'm Jeremy Collins, the Director of Conferences and Symposia at the National World War II Museum in New Orleans. Today's episode is brought to you by the museum's Jenny Craig Institute for the Study of War and Democracy. At the 2012 International Conference on World War II, we were privileged to listen to a conversation between renowned author, Rick Atkinson, and World War II veterans, Walt Ehlers and Gerhard Hennes. Walt served in the 3rd Infantry Division of the US Army in North Africa. He then served with the 1st Infantry Division in Normandy, where he performed actions that were later awarded the Medal of Honor. Gerhard was in the German Afrika Korps, and was captured in North Africa, becoming a prisoner of war for the remainder of the conflict.

Rick Atkinson 

Well, we're fortunate this afternoon to have two veterans from North Africa with us today. They were adversaries, who obviously didn't know each other at the time. I will say that the three of us together are 241 years old. I'm the only one who looks it. I'll introduce them separately first, and then I'll get it started by asking questions. But then, we'll open it up, and hopefully you will have good questions. Of the two of them, I think you'll find that they've both had extraordinary lives, and both have extraordinary experiences in North Africa. We'll try and keep it focused to some degree on North Africa today, since that's the focus of this part of the conference.

On my right, initially, Walt Ehlers was born in Kansas in 1921 into a farm family. He joined the Army in 1940, at age 19 with his older brother Roland. He made his first assault landing in North Africa at the age of 21 with the 3rd Infantry Division in Morocco. He made his second assault landing on Sicily at the age of 22, and his third at age 23, as a staff sergeant in the 18th Infantry of the 1st Infantry Division at Omaha Beach in Normandy. On that day, at Omaha Beach, Roland Ehlers was killed. Staff Sergeant Ehlers, who was not killed, fought in other battles with the 1st Division, including the Hürtgen Fores. He was promoted to second lieutenant. And in December, 1944, he was awarded the Medal of Honor for gallantry at Normandy.

On Walt's 24th birthday, the Germans, who obviously knew what they were up against, which was May 7th, 1945, the German High Command surrendered. Walt subsequently worked for the Veterans Administration for 29 years, and another eight years for disabled American veterans. His awards also include three Purple Hearts. Gerhard Hennes, on my left, was born in Germany in 1922, and his family subsequently moved to Coblence. His father was a minister. Gerhard was an exchange student in England before the war in... Tell me again?

Gerhard Hennes

Canterbury.

Rick Atkinson

Canterbury. In March of 1939, Gerhard became a labor camp worker, an arbeitsmann. And among other things, he helped to reinforce the Westwall, the Siegfried Line, as it was known to the Western Allies. Those who were working on it, were told that it was to protect Germany from French invasion. In December, 1939, three months after World War II began, Gerhard joined a Signal Corps Battalion in Posen in Poland, eventually rising to the rank of lieutenant. He subsequently was transferred to France, and then to North Africa in 1941, where he was a signal officer with the Africa Corps. He participated in various battles of the North African campaign, including El Alamein and the retreat west into Tunisia. He was captured by the British in May of 1943, transferred eventually to American custody, and spent the next several years in various prisoner of war camps, including one in Tennessee.

After being repatriated to Germany, he returned to the United States in 1953, and became a citizen of this country several years later. He worked for church organizations for nearly 50 years, working and traveling in 80 countries, including six years of living in Geneva with the World Council of Churches. Please join me in welcoming these two veterans. Gerhard, let me start with you first because you were in Africa first. As a soldier, you served in Poland and in France, tell us about arriving in North Africa to join the signal unit. Your job essentially, was to lay wire behind advancing infantry and armor units. What were the circumstances like at that point? How well equipped were you? What did you find when you got there?

Gerhard Hennes

The purpose of the Single Corp, I was at the army level, we all had different kinds of units, was to lay cable. There were two kinds of cable. One was field cable, very thin. You could lay it for about 40 mile, and the earth was the reverse flow for that connection. And you had a heavier rubber cable where the reverse flow was again in the cable, and that had maybe a capacity of some 10 miles. I was a wire stringer in North Africa, and I was serving at the army level, but for reasons unknown, I always was kind of upfront. And I ran on mines three times, and lived. And got into all kinds of other scraps, and was rather fortunate. And then, I had myself taken a prisoner, not by the British, but by the French, and that was a special experience. I will explain later if asked.

Rick Atkinson 

Okay, Gerhard, why was it a special experience?

Gerhard Hennes 

You know what? His memory is short. Well, three of us thought that we would do what all soldiers in war are commanded to do, to rejoin their units. And the three of us wanted to make it to Spanish Morocco, 800 miles away. But after a short week, we were caught again, and turned over to the French in the same camp in Tunisia. And we got sentenced to 30 days at bread and water. And I mean bread and water. And after three days, they made a little cage near a little latrine for good measure. Barbed wire. They put us in that nine by nine-foot cage.

When one evening a French first lieutenant was coming toward our cage, and he had in his hand a piece of bread. And he said in pigeon German... The French can't pronounce the H in the alphabet. The French are limited in some ways. And he said, "Here," here. Piece of bread. Wife of farmer," he had been a prisoner of war in Germany, "gave me extra peace of bread." "Here. Here it is." Do not want to owe you anything." And then, he walked away, kind of raising his shoulders as if he had gotten rid of a load that he had to get rid of. The free French did not particularly care for the Germans, and vice versa. Am I too long?

Rick Atkinson 

No, that was perfect. So Walt, you were on a ship heading across the Atlantic with your brother.

Walter Ehlers

Yes.

Rick Atkinson

And they distributed French language dictionaries to you? And–

Walter Ehlers

That's right.

Rick Atkinson

Did you know that they spoke French in Morocco? Did you know you were going to Morocco?

Walter Ehlers

No, I was kind of naive in those days. When they gave us a French translation books, naturally, we thought we're going to France, but I found out there was another country ahead, was speaking French. And I was pretty doggone seasick when I was on that ship, and I didn't care much about where I was going, just so I could get off of that ship.

Rick Atkinson 

Describe to us arriving off the coast of Morocco. The weather, as I mentioned this morning, was very bad initially. And then it calmed down for the 8th of November. You landed at Fedala with the 3rd Division near Casablanca.

Walter Ehlers 

That's right.

Rick Atkinson

Tell us about it.

Walter Ehlers

Well, I landed with the 3rd Infantry Division in Africa. And it was indefinitely, a strange situation. Number one, like I said, I was so seasick, when they put me on this Higgins boat, I even got sicker. And the French were shelling us from Casablanca, and they were coming right over to Fedala. And the shells were just... We were out in these Higgins boats, between the mothership and the Higgins boats, and the beach. And we were headed for the beach, and the shells were going right over my head. And I felt like I wanted to raise up my head, and have it blown off, so I could get out of my misery. Well, I wasn't thinking about the consequences. But anyway, when I got off, I was on one of these rounded, pointed Higgins boats. They had different kinds of boats. Everybody I think sold Higgins boats got a flat thing, and ran out the front. And they didn't for the first two landings that I made.

And I had to jump over the side into the water, and then, run up on the beach. The first thing I saw on the beach was one of our men, who had gotten hit. And his right thigh was bent right straight out from him. And I looked at him, and he was laying on his face, and he apparently, was dead. But I had to keep on going anyway. And I got up into the rocks, and things like this. We got shelled a little bit more, and we kept on going, and we finally took over the French Morocco part there, and captured Casablanca. And there's a lot of story here, but I'll just let you take it. That's it.

Rick Atkinson 

Well, and then subsequently, you and your brother were both transferred to the 1st Division.

Walter Ehlers 

Yep.

Rick Atkinson 

But tell first, the fascinating story. In January of 1943, you had special visitors who came to Casablanca, the president and the prime minister.

Walter Ehlers

Yeah.

Rick Atkinson 

And you were in the battalion that was part of the Honor Guard for the president.

Walter Ehlers

I was in the 18th Infantry Company K, and we were selected as the front row of the Honor Guard for President Roosevelt when he arrived. And of course, when President Roosevelt's coming down the street, and he's about from here to you from me, and heard him say, "These are mighty fine looking troops. They'd make good replacements for the 1st Infantry Division." I thought, "Wow." Well, within three weeks we were on our way to the 1st Infantry Division. When we got to the 1st Infantry Division, it was the 18th Infantry Regiment, Company K. And it's kind of strange, taking regular army men, who went into the military service, and had two years of combat training, and then sent them out of your division to another division. But it was by the order of President Roosevelt. And I went on an executive order.

I've been on a lot of those since then, but it's amazing what can happen to you when you speak to the wrong people. And when we got to 18th Infantry, we joined the English Army. You can imagine, the first thing I noticed that I didn't like about that, we had oxtail soup. And when I opened my soup can, I was looking for the tail. And sure enough, I found a hair in the soup, and I wouldn't eat it.

Rick Atkinson

So, Gerhard, you arrive and you're part of Tobruk, and then you were at El Alamein. You experienced the agony, and the ecstasy of that army that was in North Africa at the time for the Germans. Tell us a little bit about the experience of retreating across Africa once El Alamein had occurred. And within that context, what did you all think about Rommel? How did Rommel seem from the vantage point of a young lieutenant? He had beguiled the allies to some extent by that point. Did he beguile his own soldiers?

Gerhard Hennes

Retreat is different from advance. The preoccupation, at least in my own mind, after retreating from El Alamein, was how in the world am I going to get out of Africa? Then I was preoccupied because my assignment was my platoon and I, with the retreating German troops last night to destroy the telephone wires. And that was tricky business because the roads were being mined. Indeed, the mine pots, the bridge mines, were near the telephone posts. And one night, why, when we were destroying the cable, at three o'clock, a command car comes toward us, a general jumps out. "I saw it," he said. "I saw it. You turned on the light. I had given specific instructions not to turn on the light." I said, "General, I'm trying to find the things that we need to destroy, and I need to turn the light..." "I saw it, you will hear from me."

Well, I got a letter of reprimand on which my company commander never acted. So, we continued to saw every night, something like 600 miles. We destroyed the telephone lines, which did not really hinder the British advancing. Our work was for naught. But it was interesting, beautiful moonlit nights, Africa, man. And occasionally, there were strafing planes, and we didn't care for them. But our platoon managed to get a near kill, which was acknowledged, for which the man who worked the machine gun, got the Iron Cross, 2nd class.

Rick Atkinson

And how about Rommel's reputation from your vantage point at that time?

Gerhard Hennes

Well, like all generals, it's good to stay away from him.

Rick Atkinson 

You and Colonel Cirillo would get along well.

Gerhard Hennes

Well, he is a ranking officer, also. I'm kidding. I only saw him once from a great distance. He was generally, popular with the troops. 1941, Tobruk being besieged, he comes up to the front troops. "How's it going, men?" "Not good, General. We don't have any water, we don't have any transport, we don't have enough ammunition." He said, "Look over there, you see the barbed wire? You see that hill position there in Tobruk?" He said, "Get it." We didn't get it until a year later. And probably the taking of Tobruk in 1942, certainly for me, was the most glorious experience ever. Moving across the tank ditch, laying out our cable. Ever forward, 33,000 prisoners of war, and about a hundred gathered around my tent. So, we had to watch the prisoners of war instead of laying wires.

Rick Atkinson

And one of the great disasters for the British Army in all of World War II.

Gerhard Hennes

Correct.

Rick Atkinson

So Walt, you arrived to join the 18th Infantry in time for the Battle of El Guettar. You were there.

Walter Ehlers

Yes, I was.

Rick Atkinson 

And El Guettar was an attack by the 10th Panzer Division in the spring of 1942 at a time when the battles of Kasserine Pass were over. The Germans were trying essentially, to stave off the strangulation of their lines as the army with Gerhard is pulling back from Libya into Tunisia. Describe for us what you found there. It was one of the most intense bits of combat in the North African campaign. And as I asked Gerhard about Rommel, your commanders in the 1st Division were a couple of pretty famous guys, Major General Terry de la Mesa Allen, and the assistant division commander was Ted Roosevelt. Did you have any contact with them?

Walter Ehlers 

Not personally.

Rick Atkinson

Tell us about Guettar.

Walter Ehlers

I saw them, but actually, they didn't operate down at our level because it was too dangerous. What I would like to tell you is that when we were up in North Africa, and we were supposed to be heading out towards the Mediterranean, just one day they came out and they told us we had to go over here and protect a pass of this valley that we were in. And Company K was assigned to a hill. They gave it a number, and I don't know what the number was, but I always hear about them after I have fought on them. And I don't know sometimes what hill I was on. But anyway, when I was leaving there... I having one of these lapse of memories you know you get it 91? It's hard to keep your concentration going here. Can you hear me okay?

Audience

Yes.

Walter Ehlers

Oh, okay. Well anyway, I'll get on with my story here. When we were hiking out across there, we came on all these hills here. And every time we came one, they said, "Well, you're going to see the Mediterranean on the other side." And that's the hardest part about Africa we had, was going over those hills. But when we got to El Guettar, that was another story. We headed up to this mountain on the side over there, and it had a a pass through there. And we went up on this hill over here on the left side, and all the rest of the division was down across the front, and down over on the right side. And I'm with the 18th Infantry, Company K then. And we were the first company that got a Presidential Unit Citation. We fought all day on... I forgot what the number of the day was, but it was a heck of a long day, and we were running out of ammunition. And that night, we withdrew off of the hill.

And we were getting our supplies caught up with us, so and we were getting more ammunition, things like this. And during the night, the Germans made one last assault on that hill. They came up there, they shot up a bunch of flares, and things. We saw them running all over there, and they couldn't find any of us, and so they withdrew off the hill. The next morning, they were withdrawing because they had ran out of fuel, or were running out of fuel because they couldn't get to our fuel depots. That's what their original plan was, to get behind our troops and get into our fuel depo. But they didn't make it off of that hill. We killed over 200 Germans on that hill that day. And they kept coming up the hill in half-tracks, dumping them off, and going back the half-tracks that survived, and so forth.

And speaking of half-tracks, we had one of our own half-tracks sitting over there and they shot one of their 88s at it. It blew it right in two. I saw this half-track get blowing in two. I saw a man get blowing in two up there at the same time. And it's a gruesome site. But I'll tell you one thing, the Germans put up a hard fight on that hill, and they had two panzer divisions, and the 1st Infantry Division didn't have our tanks up there yet. We were just hanging on there all by ourselves. And the division's artillery were firing the 105 howitzers and the 155 howitzers. And they had the Long Tom 155 howitzers out there. And they had all these pointed up this valley. Well, the Germans were coming down there, and man, you could see the firepower going out there, and we wondered how they were ever going to get through.

Well, they didn't, but they got stopped. Our front line, our artillery was already spiking their guns because they figured they were going to have to withdraw. But the Germans withdrew that night cause they figured they couldn't get through the line. They didn't know how close they come getting through. But anyway, they didn't get through, and we survived that day. And it was one of the longest days of my life. When you're fighting, and you have to do this firing for eight hours in a spell, that is tough. But, we survived it. And when we came back up on the hill that morning, the Germans were leaving, and we could see them leaving, and going up the valley. And that's when we started chasing them back to the Mediterranean. But again, here we are, we're going up these hills. And every hill we come to, they'd say the Mediterranean's just over the hill. We went over a few hills before we got to the Mediterranean, and then, we headed out in the desert.

Rick Atkinson

And you were a motorman.

Walter Ehlers

And I was a motorman there.

Rick Atkinson 

And you ran out of mortar ammunition, isn't that right?

Walter Ehlers 

I ran out of motor ammunition. I had to take up the rifle, and I was on the front line there. And by the way, talk about friendly fire. It was the first time that I heard about friendly fire. And I also saw it. Our artillery down there, was getting directions from the artillery foreman, the man who's the-

Rick Atkinson

Forward observer.

Walter Ehlers

Yeah. Anyway, he was given the position of the Germans who were attacking the hill, so he called in that position, but he got it in reverse. He got our position first, and then gave the German positions as ours. And I saw these artillery guns, I saw smoke coming up from it, and all of a sudden we are getting blasted. And I'm right out there on front, 'cause we were already running out of ammunition and a big old artillery shell, one of ours landed right close to me, and I went up into the air, and I came down. And when the artillery's barrage stopped, we got it stopped by emergency flags, and things like that. And I was laying there, and I felt something hot beside me. There was a piece of shrapnel as big as my forearm here laying right there next to me. That's how close it came that day. And like I said, it was a long day.

Rick Atkinson

Gerhard, I'll ask you one more question, then we'll open it up to the audience. The day he's talking about, which is late March of 1943. First of all, did you have any recollection of that battle, El Guettar? I know that you were part of the Kasserine Pass sequence of battles. Tell us what you recall about that. That would've been a little more than a month earlier than the date Walt was just talking about.

Gerhard Hennes

I had a regiment commander who had been my battalion commander in France. I didn't like him then. I didn't like him later on when he asked me to get away from laying cables doing dangerous, important stuff, and made me his aide-de-camp, or whatever the French call it. I didn't like that because he smoked a lot of cigarettes, and wanted me to be his companion during the night when he made all these signal corp charts every night, except that he was always 24 hours late. I didn't like that assignment, so I do not know anything about the western attack by the 1st Italian Army by then. And I didn't know anything about Kasserine. Other than that I know it's one of those steep bald passes that are common in Tunisia. So, I can't answer the question because the colonel kept me busy with stupid stuff.

Rick Atkinson 

Colonel-

Walter Ehlers

Speaking of the Italians, we fought the Italians too, by the way. But we found out that they're much more easier to fight than the Germans. And the Italians were ready to give up. They didn't want to fight that war. And we captured a lot of Italians before we got through there. I guess that was the most people we captured because we didn't find too many German soldiers in that vicinity at that time. But there were Italian outposts, and things like this that we captured, and they were ready to give up.

Rick Atkinson 

So Walt, if I recall correctly, you began having nightmares in North Africa?

Walter Ehlers

Yeah. My nightmares mostly started after my brother got killed on Normandy D-Day.

Rick Atkinson

You would have nightmares about you and your mother fighting the Japanese together?

Walter Ehlers

Oh yes. This is a nice coincidence, you might be interested in. In January of 1950, I guess it was, I called my brother and I wanted him to attend a Medal of Honor convention up in Indianapolis, Indiana, where they put a memorial up for us. And I'm talking to him on the telephone, and "Claus," I said. I don't know ever told you this, but my mother and I, and my brother, we, and I especially had these nightmares where she and I and my brother were over in the Philippines, or wherever they were in the Pacific, helping them fight the Japanese. And I said that. And then he said, "Well, Walt, he says, "I was having these nightmares that my mother and I were over in Africa, and in Germany." And he said, "I was having these nightmares that we were fighting the Germans."

I said, "There must be something to this." Well, I'm not absolutely sure what it is, but my mother made me make a commitment when I went into the service. She said, "I won't sign your papers for you unless you promise to be a Christian soldier." And so I told her I would be. But that really set in on me, and I just think that there's something to this fabulous community between people. And I had nightmares for 15 years after I got out of the military service, having every night my brother come to visit me. And that's unbelievable, but it is what happened, and-

Rick Atkinson

This is the brother who was killed in Normandy, not the other brother who was in the Pacific?

Walter Ehlers 

Yeah. And when I was to give a speech at the French Liberation ceremony, the 50th anniversary, I mentioned that when I closed my speech. That my brother was killed on Normandy on D-Day, and since that time I've had very few nightmares about the him coming to visit me. But every once in a while, it still happens, but it's all gone now mostly. So, there's something true about talking this thing over about with your friends, or relatives, or somebody else.

Rick Atkinson

Well, that's right. And you spent 29 years with the Veterans Administration helping them talk it through, right?

Walter Ehlers

Yeah. Well, I was telling them what to do.

Rick Atkinson 

So, let's take some questions from the audience and see what they want to ask you about. Right here, sir. Yeah,

Guest 1

Gerhard, this is maybe a loaded question. I understand that you were in the-

Gerhard Hennes

I'm sure I'm sure it is.

Guest 1

I understand that you were in the PoW camp at El Alamein.

Gerhard Hennes

Wrong, I was taken a prisoner in Tunisia.

Guest 1

So, how did you get out?

Gerhard Hennes

I didn't get out. I was shipped through 16 camps in six different countries because I was being interrogated by the British and the French. They wanted to know what I did not know. And eventually, I was turned over to the Americans after coming to this country on the Queen Mary in 1943.

Guest 1

Well, the reason I asked the question about the PoW camp, is that we had a hundred Germans on a hundred ships in tail end of '43 or '44. And they all thought you guys were coming back to PoW camps in the United States. And so did we. Except that some of you people, ended up hustling cargo at various Italian ports for the Italian invasion. On my particular ship we unloaded at Pantelleria, which is at the choke point between Italy and Tunisia.

Gerhard Hennes

No, I didn't hustle anything. You don't hustle as a PoW.

Rick Atkinson

There's a question back there, Jeremy.

Guest 2

Yes. You said that you were part of the 1st Infantry Division, and I was wondering what the average soldiers thought of Terry Allen and his command because afterwards, when the invasion in Sicily. And after the invasion in Sicily, he was relieved. So, I was just curious as to if you had any opinion, or thoughts on how the soldiers perceived Terry Allen.

Rick Atkinson

Did you hear that? He wanted to know how soldiers perceived Terry Allen since Terry Allen was relieved in Sicily. Did you have a view of Terry Allen as a commander?

Walter Ehlers

When it comes to the top command, I know very little about what they were doing up there. The first place is I knew we had a general by the name of Terry Allen, and we had one by the name of Roosevelt in charge of the division. But we very seldom got that close to them, so I couldn't talk about them or how they got along, or anything. But I did have a talk with Eisenhower out in Palm Springs area. Idyllwild Farm he was on, staying out there after he got out of the presidency out of University of... some school that he was teaching at. One of the greatest men I ever met in my life. And then, I heard this guy talking about Eisenhower today, and I got to talk to him personally, but I've known him for many, many years, and he is probably the only person that I know. But he told me about his generals, and the only one that he actually mentioned was Patton.

And I figure, you guys are having a lot of fun with Patton. But Patton was an inspiration. Patton was also one of our secret weapons because when Eisenhower gave him a job, he got it done. And the one thing that the Germans didn't want to face was Patton. Terry Allen and Roosevelt had a problem because their GIs, when they got a break in Tunisia, after the war was over there, he got into a fight in the city or something like that. And Patton was trying to get him dismissed or something. I don't know what was happening, but Eisenhower broke that all up. And Eisenhower is a fantastic soldier. He knew his job, and he did a fantastic job of keeping the armies together, and kept them from fighting one another.

Rick Atkinson

Well, that's exactly right. Alan and Roosevelt were held responsible, particularly by Omar Bradley, for indiscipline within the 1st Division after the Tunisia campaign. It was a bit of a drunken mob, you could confirm that or not. And Bradley was lying in wait, really, for Alan's misstep. And he was relieved after the Battle of China in August of 1943. Question over here, sir.

Guest 3

I was wondering if Gerhard could share his thoughts about when you knew you were coming to the United States to a PoW camp and any thoughts about experiences in the United States as a prisoner of war?

Gerhard Hennes

We came to the United States, some 20 or 30 people landing in New York on October 12th, which was Columbus Day, which the Germans did not celebrate. And a day later we, after a night's ride on the train, we landed in Crossville, and-

Rick Atkinson

Tennessee.

Gerhard Hennes

Tennessee that is. I think it's still Tennessee. While we were trucked to that camp, my group went into camp number four, there were six. Such four were four officers, two were four enlisted men who cleaned the barracks, and did other jobs, and helped the officers. Especially, the majors and colonels to keep their uniforms nice. I was fortunate, and I think it was a very rare event that my father, who had been on the Russian front for two years, but then, had been taken prisoner in Normandy, appeared in our camp. I had suffered an injury, a kidney stone operation in the Nashville General Hospital, but I had assumed I had been kicked playing soccer in my back, and so I was back in the camp Christmas evening. And here was my father in the same camp in Crossville. He had himself transferred from Colorado, and paid for the fare because that was good business. And here was my father. And the last year he and I were together.

But my father belonged to, please note women, the large group of men, who they do not undress their soul. And so, I never really came close to my father. We walked together the walkways. He sat in my English classes. I did not attend his religious services because he was a minister and an officer. And then, we were discharged on the same day, January 30th, 1946, 13 years to the day after Hitler came to power. And the gate would open as a PoW, and I was free. The question was free for what?

Rick Atkinson 

And let me follow up with that, Gerhard. Your father was a member of the Nazi Party?

Gerhard Hennes

My father was a member of the Nazi Party as of about 1934. I was not. My mother registered my elder brother for party membership, hoping that it would advance his career as a forester after the war, and my brother stayed in Russia.

Rick Atkinson

Sir, right here. In the middle.

Guest 4

Mr. Ehlers, could you describe what happened that led you to be awarded the medal?

Walter Ehlers

I got my Medal of Honor for the 9th and 10th of June of 1944. And how it came about that I got into that kind of a position, was the fact that... There's always a story that precedes something that happens. And what actually preceded this happening was that on the night of the 7th or something like that, we had a German patrol overrun our position. They shot at them when they came in, but we couldn't shoot at them if they got inside. Well, I was at the back of the area there. And my squad, by the way, my position changed from Waterman, and I was a rifleman when I landed in Normandy. And I was a squad leader, and I had 12 men. And when this German patrol came soon, they happened to run right over our position and they went out a gate down the road.

This is at night. And company commander called for someone to take a patrol out there. My platoon leader came and told me that he wanted me to take a patrol to follow those Germans. There was four of us. We went out, and we went into this road, and it was dark. You couldn't see your hand in front of you. You could see the sky above, but that's about all. And we started following them, and we could hear them. And we ran across a briefcase that one of them dropped, and we picked it up. And we went a little ways further, and I said, "Well, we're going far enough." We are actually probably out about a mile and a half or something like that. And here we are out here in the middle of the night amongst strangers. We don't even know who these people are over here when we leave our side of the defense line.

And I took the squad back, and I didn't get a reprimanded. I got congratulations. I gave him the briefcase. And when they took it down to CP, they opened it up, and here it was the second and third lines of defenses of the German positions. The next morning they figured out where we were apparently, and they wanted me to take off in this particular direction with another platoon in this field over here. And I'm over here. And we're going across there, out in an open field. And they started firing on us troops over there. And I suddenly realized the day before I'd seen some guys get caught down by the Germans out in that field. And they were laying down there as flat as they could, and I could see the Germans hitting these guys in the butt, and things like this. It was gruesome. But anyway, I rushed my men up to the hedgerow in front of me 'cause I didn't want them get caught down out in the field.

And then, when I got down there, there's a machine gun still firing out there, so I'm going down this hedgerow. And I started up the hedgerow where the gun was up there, and I was on this side, and there were Germans coming down this side, but I didn't know they were there until I got close to them, and I heard them. I could also smell them. But anyway, I went up on the hedge row, and here's four guys looking at me with their pistols drawn. And I got my rifle at port arms pointed at them, and the machine gun was still going. So, I didn't think about anything. I just shot the four guys because I knew I had to get up there. I kept on going up the hedgerow. And I came out, and I shot the three guys on the machine gun nest there. And I hear another machine gun going on up another hedgerow. So, I keep going on up this hedgerow, and it came out in that corner, and I got another three guys. And I thought, "My gosh, what's happening here?"

There's another machine gun up there. And I go up to the third one, and when I knocked it out, there was a clearing on the brush up there. Well, I went up on the top here, and here was a mortar position, two big 80-millimeter type mortars. And they had about 12 men in there. Actually, because I ran into the first patrol, I had all my guys fix their bayonets. So, I had my bayonets fixed when I got aim up there on that hill. And I'm standing at there with my bayonet pointed at them, and I asked them to halt, or something like that. I didn't say anything else. They didn't do anything, but turned and started running because my squad started coming up and they saw their bayonets. They didn't want to get mixed up with a bayonet fight apparently, because they didn't have any bayonets. And they started running. And I told the guys, I said, "We got to shoot them, or you're going to fight them again." And so they did.

And that day, they gave me credit for knocking out 17 Germans myself, but I'm not absolutely sure. But that's what they gave me credit for. So, it's my squad that helped me get the Medal of Honor. But that wasn't the end of it. On the next day we had to go up, and this time we go up a hedgerow. We're going right next to the hedgerow. We going to have some cover from one side or the other. And we started getting fire from three sides. That's how far out we were extended. And company commander told us to withdraw because we were surrounded. And I said to myself, "If we turn around and go back, we're going to get shot in the back." And I went up on this little mole out here. It was like a [?] place there, where they kept for cattle or something. And I went up on it, and I could see over the hedgerows. And I had my gun, I was starting to fire, and my BAR man came out and he helped me. He fired on the right, and I fired to the left.

And we've asked the squad all returned back to the hedgerow behind us, which they did. And when they all got back, when he and I turned to go, exactly had happened was that I got hit in the back when I was down there. And they were putting a machine gun in down at the corner of the hedgerow right across from me, and I just started shooting at them. And I got hit in the back. It spun me around, and as I'm coming down, I'm on forearms, and I saw a German in the hedgerow. I shot him, and then I saw my BAR man laying up there on the ground. I ran up, and I got him, and I carried him back. Then, I turned him over to the medic, even though I was wounded myself. He knocked me completely down. That's the reason I'm on dialysis today is because of my gunshot wound. But anyway, I carried the man back. I had his left arm over my shoulder, and his right arm was hit, and his right leg was hit. He couldn't even walk.

And I carried him back to the hedgerow, turned him over to the medics, and then, I got to get the BAR. So, I went back up and I got the BAR. I came back, and that's probably the reason I got the Medal of Honor. But anyway, some guy says, "What were you thinking when you went back to get that BAR?" I said, "If I was thinking I wouldn't have went back to get it. I was just doing my job." That's exactly how I got it. I was just doing my job.

Rick Atkinson

Jeremy, right in front of you.

Guest 5

Right before that action, you landed on D-Day Omaha Beach. What were your thoughts, if you had them, when you were approaching the beach in your Higgins boat and landing on Omaha Beach?

Rick Atkinson

On June 6th, 1944, as you're approaching Omaha Beach, you're in the 18th Infantry, so you're the second wave.

Walter Ehlers

Right, second wave, but I wasn't.

Rick Atkinson 

But yeah, you weren't. So-

Walter Ehlers 

I didn't tell you the complete story.

Rick Atkinson 

Tell them a little bit about that.

Walter Ehlers

I was supposed to be in the second wave, but the first wave got pinned down, and they wanted more people on the beach immediately. My squad, we were excess squad on the 18th Infantry Regiment's, a headquarter boat, and it was an LCI. And they sent my squad over into a Higgins boat. And just the 12 of us went into a Higgins boat, and we headed into the beach. And there were other boats that were being loaded up, but ours was probably one of the first ones that hit the beach. And we go running out of the boat, and we go into all this chaos on the beach. You cannot imagine what those beaches looked like as a result of the first firing on the troops coming in. They were slaughtered practically, just as they came out of the boats. They died right there on the beach, many of them.

But there was a Navy beachmaster there, and he was directing traffic. And I happened to come across him, and I said, "What direction do we go from here?" And he said, "Just follow that path." He says, "If you step to the right or left of it, you'll step on mines, and the same thing will happen to you, what you see along the mine." Well, there were bodies were right and left of the mine. And we got on the path and we went through two rows of wire, but there was a third row there and it hadn't been blown. And there were two guys still there, but they were laying in a ditch kind of, and they were being fired upon. And every time they'd move, the German snipers would fire on them.

And so I said, "Well, we'll fire up in the direction that fire's coming from." So, we did, and we were firing and that, and they got up to blow the wire. One guy got killed, the other one got the wire blown. And we rushed through that. They made a path just like you got right down this row here. And then, we were going up on the hill. Well, back of the wire, they didn't have any mines fortunately. And we got up into the trenches with the Germans, and they started running from us. And that's how my approach to the beach was when we were coming up up there. There were so many airplanes going over and so many Navy ships firing at the pill boxes and so forth. But they weren't hitting our pill boxes, and they were no shells landing in our fields. And we had nothing but a flat field out there, and we were still exposed to the crossfire from the German guns. And they still were firing. They weren't all knocked out.

But we did get behind a pill box up on the hill, and we captured that pill box from behind. And we sent four guys that we captured down to be interrogated. And as my good soldier instincts told me to do, that's what I did. And then, I went on and we knock out what we could. The rest got away while we just kept on going, and we were fighting inland into the hedgerows. And that night, we had to stop because we would've been disorganized. And we finally got our company... We didn't see our company commander until the next morning and that's when I asked about my brother, and I came across his platoon sergeant. I said, "Sarge, where's my brother?" He says, "He's missing an action."

I knew then that he wouldn't be missing an action because he wasn't that. Kind of a person. He would've either been hurt, hit or wounded, or killed. But, that's all I could do. I couldn't go look for him or anything like that. That was chaos down on the beach, and I couldn't go look for him. But anyway, that's what it was like when I came in there.

Rick Atkinson

We've got time for one more question.

Guest 6

Mr. Hennes, I wanted to a thank you for being here with us and sharing. I wanted to ask you, were you drafted or did you volunteer for the military? And also, what were your feelings of the future of Germany success in the war when you were in Africa?

Gerhard Hennes

It was the pattern in the Germany of the '30s that you would serve two mandatory years in the military, preceded by six months of also mandatory labor service for a total of two and half years. And it was the practice that you tried to get the military service out of the way before you went on to a university study as I intended to do. And you had a second part of that question, and I can't remember more than one.

Rick Atkinson

He asked you what were your thoughts when you were in Africa about Germany's future at that point?

Gerhard Hennes

We were winning the war. Indeed, into 1944. And that is perhaps understandable when you are a prisoner of war, you need to maintain the comradeship and the loyalty to your own country, just as Americans would in North Vietnam. So, we remained loyal and still nourished the hope that Germany might win the war. She did not.

Rick Atkinson 

Please join me in thanking our veterans. Thank you.

Jeremy Collins

Thanks for listening. We encourage you to visit nationalww2museum.org/podcasts for more episodes. That is nationalww2museum.org/podcasts. Don't forget to check out the events tab on our homepage at nationalww2museum.org, as well, to catch some of these conversations and programs in real time. The museum is marking a special year here in New Orleans. Coming at the end of 2023, we will be unveiling our capstone addition to our campus, Liberation Pavilion. The pavilion will cover the closing months of the war and the post-war years, exploring the links between World War II and today.

Equally important, the museum has the privilege and honor of hosting the 2023 Congressional Medal of Honor Society's annual convention. Taking place in New Orleans from October 31st to November 4th, the convention is one of our country's most prestigious and patriotic events, providing unique opportunities for the public to engage with Medal of Honor recipients. Learn more at cmohs.org. This series is made possible by the Albert and Ethel Herzstein Charitable Foundation, which supports content like this from the National World War II Museum in New Orleans. Please remember to rate and subscribe. It goes a long way to helping others find this series. I'm Jeremy Collins, signing off.