"World War II On Topic" is made possible by The Herzstein Foundation.

Jeremy Collins

Hello, I'm Jeremy Collins, the director of conferences and symposia at the National World War II Museum in New Orleans. This is World War II On Topic, Veteran Voices. Today's episode is a collaboration between the museum's Jenny Craig Institute for the Study of War and Democracy and the Curatorial Services Department. We are going back to May of 2021 when senior curator, Kim Guise, had a conversation with World War II veteran and concentration camp liberator, Alan Moskin. Moskin was a member of the 66th Regiment of the 71st Infantry Division, and participated in the liberation of the Gunskirchen concentration camp in May 1945. He discusses his pre-war life, wartime experiences and being a part of an innovative exhibit installation, Dimensions and Testimony, Liberator Alan Moskin, an interactive biography from USC Shoah Foundation.

Welcome, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Jeremy Collins. I'm the Director of Conferences and Symposia here at the National World War II Museum. It's my pleasure to host today's program, which will feature one of my favorite people on campus, our curator, Kimberly Guise, and she will be interviewing our veteran, Alan Moskin today. Kimberly holds a BA in German and Judaic studies from the University of Massachusetts Amherst. She studied at the University of Freiburg in Germany, and holds a master's in library and information science from good old LSU down the road in Baton Rouge.

As a curator with the museum since 2008, she facilitated the acquisition of thousands of artifacts, and has curated several exhibitions, including Guests of the Third Reich, American POWs in Europe, and she was in charge of the exhibit and presentation that has brought us together today. USC Shoah Foundation's Dimensions in Testimony, Liberator Alan Moskin. Dimensions in Testimony, Liberator Alan Moskin is presented in New Orleans by the Franco Family Fund, Karen and Leopold Sher, in memory of the D-Day veteran Dr. Hal Baumgarten, and Holocaust survivors Rachel and Joseph Sher, and also the Jewish Endowment Foundation of Louisiana through the Sandra and Edward Heller Family Fund. Without further ado, it is my pleasure to pass it off to Kim Guise. Kim, have a great conversation, and I'll join you back for the audience Q&A.

Kim Guise

Thank you, Jeremy, for that kind introduction. As a curator here at the museum, it has been my pleasure to be able to help grow the museum's collection, and one of the best parts of my job is to be able to speak with World War II veterans, and that's something that I'm really excited to do today to be joined by Mr. Alan Moskin. And for several months now, the museum has had the pleasure of virtually hosting Mr. Moskin in our special exhibit gallery, where we're presenting for the first time the USC Shoah Foundation's Dimensions in Testimony Interactive. It's an interactive biography with Mr. Moskin, and it's the first such program to feature an American liberator, and that liberator is here with us today. Alan served with one of the 36 liberating units, the 71st Infantry Division.

The Shoah Foundation's Dimensions in Testimony Project is designed to allow visitors to engage with virtual representations of a survivor or a veteran. The individuals who participated in this project like Mr. Moskin underwent rigorous questioning, interviewing in order to make that interactive experience possible. We'll give our guest an opportunity to talk a little bit about this experience later in our discussion. But first, we'd like to give Mr. Moskin an opportunity to talk a little bit about his background and pre-war experience. Alan, can you tell us a little bit about where you grew up, and what life was like for you before the war?

Alan Moskin

Well, hi, Kim, how are you? Good to see you.

Kim Guise 

Hi.

Alan Moskin

I say it's good to see anybody.

Kim Guise

My pleasure.

Alan Moskin 

I was born in Englewood, New Jersey on May 30th, 1926, so if you can read the date that I just said, that means in a few... Let me see, today is what, the 20th? 10 days, big number coming up, 95. I don't even like saying it. My God, nobody lived to 95 when I was a kid. But knock on wood, today is good. Tomorrow, we don't know yet. But I was born in the Englewood hospital, as I said, in Englewood, New Jersey, in Bergen County. I lived in the fourth ward near Teaneck, and it was a very diverse area. I always emphasize this because there were colored, now called Black, and Jewish kids like myself, Catholics, Protestant, somebody from Asian background, and Indian, Irish Catholic. It was very diverse, and I always emphasize that.

We played in the streets. This is obviously before television, and before computers and all. We just had a radio in the house. But most every mother those days was home. I realize now that they work outside the house, but those days, every mother was in the house cooking, cleaning. Dinner time was very important. Our grandparents lived with us. Host of them from the old country came, the Irish, the Italian, the Jews, the Catholics, whatever. We played in the streets, everybody knew each other. The camaraderie was close, and people played in the streets and the girls hopping around on the sidewalk with hopscotch or whatever, we played ball.

I remember the neighborhood, the unity, the grandparents sat on the porch and everybody, "Hi, how are you?" Biggest treat was the Good Humor truck that came around every night with the ice cream, 10 cents. I say 10 cents, some of the kids say, "What?" 10 cents, that's what it was. And one stick, when you finish eating would say, "Lucky stick," you got a free one the next day, and everybody you thought you won the lottery. Everybody was screaming, "Who won the stick?"

But I remember those days and I remember when Maya Angelou, the author, Maya Angelou was one of my favorite people, poet and authors, and said many wonderful things. But she said, I remember, "People are more alike than unlike." And I like to say people are more alike than different. I understood that at an early age, I never thought about difference in religion, or different pigmentation in the skin. Never entered my mind. You played with kids with different colored skin or different religion. You don't think about religion or color of skin. And that stayed with me really my whole life. And I always look back to my upbringing at the Fourth Ward in Englewood. I went through the Englewood school system. I graduated two weeks, I was 17, very young.

I graduated Dwight Morrow High School of Englewood because I had skipped one grade. I don't know what they thought. I had something upstairs, I guess. They skipped me. I didn't like it. I was a good athlete or whatever. But as I was younger than the other guys. So when I hit 17, May 30th, 1943, 2 weeks later I started Syracuse University. I went one year at Syracuse, and then like every other male at 18 at those days got what's called a draft notice from the government. And I was up at Syracuse, report for a physical exam. And if you pass the physical, you went in the Army, the Navy, Flyboy, Coast Guard. And I went into the United States Army at the age of 18, down for infantry basic training at Camp Blanding in Florida. So now we're up to the point where I got drafted, and you want to ask me anything at that point, I'm here.

Kim Guise

You led right into my next question, and you've done this a time or two before. You have been interviewed so many times.

Alan Moskin

That's true.

Kim Guise

I appreciate the opportunity to hear the story directly from you. So you were drafted and you went to Camp Blanding, Florida. Had you been that far from home before? Was it your first time away from New Jersey?

Alan Moskin

I had gone to summer camp for many years, Camp Lennox, up in East Lee, Massachusetts, every summer since I was a kid, freshman, sophomore, junior. So for two months I think camp those days, eight weeks if I remember was a couple of hundred dollars. When I say it, she goes, "How much?" So, I think 200, 225 for eight weeks in a good summer camp, sleepaway. But I went to summer camps, so I was away from home to that extent. And then when I played ball, we used to travel a little bit once in a while, but most of the time, most of us were home those days. I think we had relatives in Miami Beach that I remember when I was a kid that we visited, and things like that. But not till Europe or other places that I encountered later on.

Kim Guise

So this was a different kind of camp.

Alan Moskin

That's true. That's true.

Kim Guise

Your training.

Alan Moskin

That's true.

Kim Guise

So you tell us a little bit about the training. What was that like?

Alan Moskin 

Well, listen, I was a good athlete I think, and I got along with all the guys who didn't have any problem with the sleepaway. But learning how to shoot an M1 rifle was not that easy for most of the Northern boys like myself. Well, I played ball, I was a good athlete, but I never had a gun in my hand before. Like most of the northerners, that I contrasted that with the Southern boys who were brought in hunting and fishing since they were kids. So shooting an M1 rifle, which was my baby in combat, the M1, I love the M1 rifle, I thought it was a really accurate weapon. It was a kick in the chin. As I said, when I first started to learn, knocked me on my rear end. Southern guys were laughing at me and all that. But remember when you first got down there, I always compared to two-wheel bicycle when you, "My God, how do you stay up?" And later on you, it's so natural.

I always compare that to the M1, after a while it was just, you learned how to squeeze it off and it became very natural. It was my baby, I called it in combat. Never left my right hip. But in basic training, I'll be honest with you, for about three months it was learning how to kill or be killed, how to survive in combat, stick a bayonet in somebody's belly and shooting weapons, machine gun, BAR, Browning automatic, marching and everything else. But I was able to get through it without a problem, because like I said I was a pretty good athlete and the physical part, excuse me, wasn't that difficult for me. And after three plus months, went back home for three day furlough and then went overseas on the Liberty Ship convoy to get into the service in Europe and fight the enemy.

Kim Guise

Yeah, I mean three months isn't a very long time when you think about it. And you went from, you were a really young man, you went from high school to training, well to Syracuse, briefly to training and then already over to Europe. So what were some of your early wartime experiences? What was Europe like at the time when you got over there?

Alan Moskin

We landed in, well first of all, going across the Atlantic Ocean, Liberty Ship convoy, woo-hoo. Those Liberty Ships were not meant to be in the Atlantic Ocean because, well guys were seasick, and I don't want to get into the details but, "Oh my God, get us off these." Everybody was throwing up and going over, it was terrible. And took us, I don't know how many days, not like today to get across, landed in Liverpool, England. I think we went across the Channel into France and then I remember we were sent into a what's called a replacement camp where they send you up, guys to different outfits as replacements. And this was in early 1945, February, I believe, something like that. I remember all the dates, and I did that. And then I was set up to join the 71st Infantry Division, the 66th Infantry Regiment, part of the Third Army led by General George S. Patton.

Didn't take long before after some training, if I remember over there, we fought in the Rhineland campaign and then the Central European campaign and places like, I remember Coburg, I remember Bayreuth, Regensburg, and I think Strasbourg, so many different towns, you don't remember them all. Again, the Rhineland campaign, the central against the Nazis, the Wehrmacht and the Waffen-SS and Hitlerjugend, and in many of those battles against the enemy, I lost a lot of close buddies. Too damn many, I'll be honest with you. And I always say I was just one of the lucky ones because if I was 100 meters to the right and the left at any given time, I wouldn't be here. And like most soldiers, I went through some kind of a guilt thing after a while, which I'm not going to get into now, and why I'm here and my buddies are not. It messes you up a little bit upstairs in the brain. GIs know what I'm talking about.

But I was one of the lucky ones, as I lost a lot of my close buddies and I talk about a few of them that were particularly, I remember of the second or third day that I was on the front line, something hit the top of my head and I reached up and I'm holding a blood soaked arm and I start screaming, well, the name of my buddy who I knew had a tattoo on his wrist of an eagle, he was going to soar like an eagle after the war, and now you're holding his arm after you're talking to him 10 minutes before. I mean you start to realize what combat, it's not a game or a movie or a television, whatever. Shook me up. I went in there a couple of weeks later. I tell everybody, the kids when I talked to him that my best friend, the best soldier I knew had his leg blown off.

I mean, I get it. I don't pull any punches. I tell him a combat really is like, it's not like the movie or a television show or being dramatizing. You're making everything look the good guys, the bad guys. It's like being to hell and back, you're in combat. I can tell you it's no joy in seeing my best friend die, and then writing a letter to his mom. It was difficult, and there's foxholes and things. I talk about all that. I don't want to get into all the details again. I still get a little emotional. I've said this, hundreds of times and I still feel their presence when I speak about it. Listen, it's 76 years ago. It's hard, when I say it, it's like happening to me right now, but 76 years, most of these kids weren't even born that I speak to way back then, or their grandparents didn't know about it.

But I'll just repeat the feelings. Combat's like being to hell and back and leave a mark on you. I don't care who you are, where you are, it leaves a mark on you. And if you want to know, it left a mark on me. I might add that we didn't know what PTSD was in World War II. No, we never heard that term. The only thing they would do was something like this. Shell shock, meant like you were crazy and they didn't know how to treat it too much. And I'll just say this also, General Patton wasn't much in neurological nervous complaints. It's, "Suck it up." Our officer, "The general says suck it up." He don't want to hear about nightmares. Or he thought maybe that you were a malinger or you're you're trying to get out of combat or something. You're faking it, that you had nightmares.

But I had nightmares, that I wasn't faking it. In retrospect, I probably had what was now known as PTSD where I used to walk the streets. I remember after the war ended, I was a member of the army of occupation and walk the streets all the time, couldn't sleep. Guys told me I was screaming next to them, names of buddies, whatever. I remember sweating a lot, crying. So, I think I probably went through an episode of PTSD and fortunately I fought my way through it and, as time went on, I dissipated it. I went about my life as I got back home after the war ended.

Kim Guise 

Yeah, I thank you Alan for sharing these difficult moments with us. I think it's important for our audience to hear and to learn, be able to learn from you. I do need to ask you about some of the most difficult things that you saw in your service, and some of the things that I'm sure contributed to your memories and your nightmares. And that's what you saw as a liberator, at the liberation of Gunskirchen on May 4th, 1945. Now you had been in Europe and had, as you said, seen some really terrible things, and lost friends prior to that time. But can you talk a little bit about those days in early May, and where you were, and what you saw?

Alan Moskin

I just want to add one other thing. It's a little bit, I was a scout with somebody else that had an occasion to shoot somebody that was shooting at my buddy, the two guys, they pair you up with another fellow go in to make sure the outfit doesn't get ambushed by the enemy. And I forget where it was, but this perpetrator was shooting my buddy and I got a couple of rounds off, made a hit and he fell to the ground. A dead soldier, very young. That was my first realization that we were fighting what we didn't know at the time, but apparently we were called the Hitlerjugend or the Hitler Youth, very young. I was only 18 but they looked like 16, 17. But was how can you be so young, my buddy, but this dead guy that I shot who was shooting at my buddy had a helmet next to him, and next to the helmet was a picture of an elderly man and woman that said, "Wir lieben dich, mama und vater."

I knew enough German, that was, "We, love you mom and dad." And even though my rational part of my brain, I knew that was the enemy. He was shooting at my buddy. If he saw me behind this Panzer tank, he would've tried to blow me away. I did my job, I followed, I understood all that. When I saw that picture of this man and woman that said, "Wir lieben dich, mama und vater," and I killed their son. It's hard to put into words, but that was very upsetting to me. I had nightmares about that, that I killed this young boy, forget that he was a Hitler Youth, right? And that their parents were never going to see him again. And I kept looking at that picture in my mind and don't ask me why, but that was one of my nightmares. Over and over. I killed my share of the enemy, okay?

I was a good soldier, I did my job. But I'm going to be honest with you, I never enjoyed killing, and it left a mark on me. To kill anybody is something, everybody reacts differently. But it wasn't a cup of tea for me. It left a mark on me. So, I'll leave it at that. Now let me get back to what your question was about. Before we got to Gunskirchen, this was early May of 1945. Near the end of the war. I remember we came across a POW camp, a prisoner of war camp, mostly RAF, Royal Air Force, British flyboys. Very thin, but overall in decent shape except for obviously not eating regularly or whatever, very thin but very happy to be liberated. There was a lot of hugging obviously, and camaraderie and talking about this and that. For the first time we heard that and one of them said to us, "Hey guys, we're not sure, but we heard a rumor that there's a camp for Jews a few kilometers down the road."

And then we said, "What?" We didn't know anything about, when I say we, my lieutenant, my captain, none of us. We knew that Hitler wasn't fond of Jews. I mean, the communication's not like today. You know, you didn't have television or all that. So we knew that the Jews weren't... That Hitler wasn't crazy about Jews in Germany. But we knew nothing about a camp or concentration camp. We said, "What kind of camp?" Okay, we thought it was a rumor we were ordered to go to it. I think Lindstedt, I'm not sure, there's some residual fighting going on. And I remember it was a damp kind of a day, kind of wet the ground. And the first thing, and I've always said, the first thing that hit you was a terrible stench, a smell that got into your nostrils, into your brain.:

We all said, "What is that freaking smell?" You could hardly breathe. And then I remember through the trees, there was like a forest area. There was this big villa compound where barbwire throw as you could see it up on the top said, "Arbeit macht frei." Well again, I knew a little enough German that would work will make you free. What a bunch of garbage that turned out to be. But that's what they had up there. I guess they wanted people to think that was just to do, just in there to do work. Very little resistance. There was one SS guard, most of the others had retreated. It was near the end of the war, I had to take care of him. And that was the last mistake he made, because he wouldn't drop his gun for some reason.

We then cut through the barbwire, entered that camp, was the Gunskirchen Lager, a sub camp of Mauthausen. Later on realized that Mauthausen, the big camps like Mauthausen and Bergen Belsen and some of when they got filled up, they sent these people on what was called a death march. We didn't know at the time, I'm just telling you a little bit that I learned later. And the death march, they go to a sub camp and one of the sub camps of Mauthausen was the Gunskirchen Lager. Another one I think was Ebensee, and I think Gusen, that's my recollection. But this was later on. But we entered this camp, Gunskirchen. I've said it so many times and I say it over and over again. It was the most horrific sight I've ever seen. And I saw a lot of dead bodies in combat, whatever. It wasn't that I didn't see death or dead bodies, but there was a pile of skeleton-like bodies on the left and another pile of skeleton-like bodies off to the right.

When I say skeletal, I mean just bones with no flesh. I always say, those poor souls. Because that's what my lieutenant kept screaming out when we had to go looking, "Those poor souls." He said, "Look at these poor souls," those poor souls that are alive were so emaciated. It defies the description, if they weigh 70, 80 pounds, that it looked to me like their arms looked like broomsticks with no flesh in it, their cheeks hollowed down and their eyes sucking back into the sockets in their heads, and they had sores all over their bodies. The stench I told you about, they had these, it looked like pajamas to me. I'm not sure. It was like gray and white tops and bottoms.

I couldn't distinguish genitalia because they all looked like bones and you couldn't tell. And I remember we kept looking at each other, "What is going on?" These were civilians. We weren't prepared for some. My captain was screaming to the rear with a walkie-talkie. I think, you couldn't... That's the communications we have. Then he couldn't get through. He was screaming, "Get help up here. There's body's all over here. People are dying." And he couldn't get through. So he was frustrated. We weren't prepared for something like this. And then I remember hearing Essen, Wasser, Zigaretten, you know, food, water, cigarette. I didn't smoke. Remember my buddies that smoked, started hearing out the cigarette cigarettes and had the lighter ready to light it. Some of these poor souls grabbed these cigarettes, they didn't want to smoke. They ripped the covering off the cigarette and started eating and chewing the tobacco.

You have to see this, what starvation does. And then, well they said Essen, Wasser, Zigaretten. I know enough, Essen means food. So we had, what do we have, spam or crackers, whatever we had, Army issues. I think today they have MREs ready to eat. It's a little better, but whatever we had, we start handing out, and you had to visually see how they would grab some of this stuff and start biting and chewing so fast. And the next thing, many of them if you can see would grab their esophagus, their throat and start choking. Now here you're trying to help, and people now choke. We were confused. Apparently I'm not a doctor, but when you're staved, apparently your so esophagus closes up for a lot of people, and they couldn't swallow. So they're choking.

And remember the medic starts screaming, "No solid food, dammit, no solid food," because that's what was happening, but I'm just trying to tell you it was chaos. And then, the barracks. The lieutenant said to go check the cuts or barracks as far as you could see, upper and lower went in there. There were dead bodies in there. The stench were so overpowering you couldn't breathe in there. And I remember they were all looking toward us, those who were sitting on dead bodies that were alive, they were praying again, and all kinds of dialects. And then they [speaking German]. I knew something like, "Help me, can you help me?"

I couldn't stay in there, because I was almost going to pass out from the smell of the stench. And I came out of there screaming to the medics, "Get help up here. This body's in here, there's people dying in here." And I get emotional, even when I talk about it now, because I bring back the picture. I've said this thousands of times. But then on the side, as I came out, something I can never ever forget, there was a dead horse, and there were three of these inmates with the bark of a tree that they cut and they were digging it into the guts of a dead horse. And I'm watching and they pull out the entrails of a dead horse and start to bite and chewing, and the blood is squirting.

If you don't think that upsets you, I mean that's what starvation does to people. You have to see it to believe it. The cannibalism was very close and with a lot of people there, it's hard to imagine you could do things like that. And one thing that I want to get across that I don't want to leave out, there was one elderly man when I said that [speaking German], broken German best I could, he knew a little English. And when I said that I was an American Jewish soldier and that he was free or best I could, "We'll take you the hospital, take care of you." He was helping a little bit with the English. But when I said that I was an American Jewish, because at first they were frightened. They didn't know who we were. I mean they just see people, they're half delirious.

But the first time he smiled and he came toward me and I thought he was going to embrace me, but he went down on his hands and knees and I'm looking and he starts kissing my boots, and my boots were caked with feces and blood, and mud and vomit. And I knew he was trying to be affectionate taught me, but I didn't... I never had anybody grovel at my feet, so to speak. I didn't like it. It made me very uncomfortable. And I picked him up under the armpits and brought him up, and God help me, the smell. And I know I've said this before, but the stench was so powerful. But he had his arms around me. He kept saying, "Danke, American."

And then as he came up, the back in the nape of his neck all the way down there was these open and this is graphic, but I want them to get the picture of the open, pus, festering sores. And out of those sores, lice, they were crawling. I mean, they all had lice because of the filth in the camp. And God help me, I wanted to pull away, but I didn't. He was holding me, thanking me. And I felt his tears. He was crying on my cheek and I don't cry that easy, but I started to lose it a little bit. It's a scene that I can never, ever forget, how happy he was to be liberated, so to speak and to be free. So all I can tell you is this, that everywhere you looked in the Gunskirchen Lager, everywhere was the foul stench of the dead and the dying.

And I said this hundreds of times, it's a scene I can never, ever forget. And I never want to hopefully ever see a scene like that again. I don't want anybody else to forget it either. That's why I've be talking to thousands of young students, middle school, high school, colleges all over the country. And I'm going to continue to do it as long as God gives me the strength, because I want them to know that there was a Holocaust, and I bear witness, I do the best I can. It's not easy to talk about these things, but I want them to know the truth. But deniers are out there right now, Kim. And I don't want to be negative, but I know in five or 10 years when some liberators like myself, or the survivors and the kid that transport the hidden children and the righteous gentiles, who by the way never get enough credit.

I got a lot of friends whose grandparents they call righteous gentiles, to help their Jewish friends and neighbors knowing that they got caught, their whole family would fall into concentration. That took a lot. We say Jews, chutzpah, guts, courage. And I always want them to know that I respect that. But listen, I do the best I can. I describe it and let them walk on my heart, my soul. I can't get rid of it, it's like a tattoo here, but I can't get rid of it. I don't think about it every minute of the day. But when I get into it, I want these kids to know exactly what I felt, what I saw. And a bear in mind that I was the age of most of those seniors in high school, I was only 18. I didn't turn 19 till the war had ended in Europe.

And when I think back now, I look at 18 year olds, I said, "Oh my God, I was that young?" I guess when you get a few bullets that go over your head, you kind of aged pretty fast. But I try to describe it as best I can. It's not a pleasant talk, but I want people to know the truth, that there was a Holocaust. And I want them to make sure that something that we went through, that we saw never happens again. That's why I'm talking, and that's why God gives me the strength. I will continue hopefully when this pandemic is over to get back to the schools, because I like to see the kids and get a hug from them, and talk to them and see their expressions, and the questions they ask and the teachers say that when I talk to them, it's so much more than when they read it. Just read it in the book or whatever. So God willing, 95 and counting. I hope I'll still be doing this.

Kim Guise

I know that we talked a little bit, that you've mentioned that you've talked to about 35,000 students probably, and I'm sure many more are watching.

Alan Moskin 

I don't know where you got that figure.

Kim Guise

I heard that number 35,000, but...

Alan Moskin 

No, much more than that. It's 135,000.

Kim Guise

350,000 maybe. Who knows? It's more for the future.

Alan Moskin 

It's 1995. That's when it started.

Kim Guise

I was going to ask you about that. So, it took you a long time before you were able to or willing to talk about what you saw in your experiences. I know that was part of your journey and how you have been making up for lost time. But when did you start talking about it, and why did it take you so long?

Alan Moskin

Well, first of all, I thought that if the nerve-wracking episodes that I had when the war ended, my nightmares and scared to sleep went on for about six months, for a year. When I got back home, I went back to Syracuse studying pre-law, then went to NYU law school. And when you start getting into studying everything gradually, my mind was more concentrated on that, thankfully. And the nightmares slightly, not went away, but slightly were dissipated. And I felt that if I was going to talk about what I just talked about now, that was going to bring back the nightmares again. So it was like I took a key and I locked up that part of my brain, threw the key away and wasn't going to speak. And I figured that anybody that asked me, "What did you do in World War II?" I said, "I did my job. I fought on the battle," and I changed the subject.

So they got the drift. I thought I was going to bring the nightmares back if I start to talk. And finally when I moved up to Rockland County many years ago, in 1995, which is 50 years after the end of the war in Europe, a lady at the local Holocaust Museum in Spring Valley at the time in Rockland County, but they were Barbara Grau who since passed away. She heard the story about me from some other GI, "Did you know Moskin was with Patton's Third Army? He was a liberator."

"No, no." And so she got my telephone number, she called me on the phone. "Is that true Mr. Moskin? Oh boy. Now I got somebody to speak to the school." Well, I was very shook up and I said, "No you don't." And I hung up the phone. I was rude. I didn't mean to be, it was just that she kept calling me and she was very aggressive. "Please," I will finally agree that I will try it one time. It was too much for me. She wouldn't ask for me to speak again.

So, 50 years after the end of the war in Europe in 1995, I spoke for the first time at the old dining hall here in Rockland. And I was dead wrong. It was like a catharsis, it was like a purging of all that poison that I was bottling up inside of me. It just came out. I must have spoke for an hour and a half, two hours. And I couldn't believe how, it was like a relief. Somebody told me sometimes it's like when you go to a psychiatrist they talk, and that was good for me to get it out. And as you know, now after 50 years and I start to speak, they can't stop me. I'm getting calls all over the country.

Kim Guise

We're still hounding you to tell your story.

Alan Moskin 

Can't call anybody liberators anymore. I'm elected with the technology. My guy gets on the phone, "Mr. Moskin." Then next thing calling me from Wyoming, from Arkansas, I said, "What?" But I'll do the best that I can and God willing, as I said, I'm going to get this talk out as long as I can, particularly to the middle school, high schools and the colleges. I speak to adult groups too, but I mainly want to hit the young people, and let them know what happened back then and make sure that they understand it, and they make sure what I saw back then never happens again.

Kim Guise 

Well, I think your participation in the Dimensions and Testimony project in which you answered many, many questions is important. You certainly have contributed to the historical record in that project, and all of these interviews that you're doing will live on. What was it like being part of the Dimensions and Testimony project, answering so many questions?

Alan Moskin

Oh boy, that's enough. This group from the Shoah Foundation came down to where I live from California, Spielberg's Shoah Foundation. I didn't know much about it. And they said they're going to do this Dimensions and Testimony, and people that I've become friendly with since, Bonnie and others couldn't have been nicer to me. And they had me go to New Jersey for one week, for hours every day. They got me dressed up in a nice little outfit sitting in a chair. And they asked every possible question that they thought would be connected to what you are talking about now, the Holocaust and what I went through, etc. And what did I see? What did I feel? Hundreds of questions on Monday, Tuesday, five days. And I think they did the same thing with some of the Holocaust survivors. But as far as I'm concerned, they covered almost any possible question.

And then they explained to me this dimension. I didn't know, I'm not good with the technology, the dimensions and testimonials. I said, "What is this all about about?" "Alan," they said, "In 10, 20, 30, 50 years from now, the kids are going to be in the classroom and what we're doing here, they're going to show them asking you a question and we feel we've covered every possible question. And then you have answered, and they're going to see you literally sitting in the chair and being in the room and talking and answering the question." Woo-hoo I said, "You're scaring me. This is weird." But I guess it's a good thing. It's different again than years from now when we're all gone, that they're going to be able to see like it's live again. So I understand. Are you working with them to a certain extent?

Kim Guise

We are. Yeah. So, we actually are the first institution to be able to host your program, your exhibition, your interactive live.

Alan Moskin

Wow.

Kim Guise

So visitors here to the museum until September 11th of this year can ask a question of, and interact with your system that the Shoah Foundation created out of those thousands of questions that you answered over that period of time.

Alan Moskin

Amazing.

Kim Guise

How do you like that?

Alan Moskin 

Oh, it's scary in a way. I wish I could be a fly on the wall, and come back years from now and see myself.

Kim Guise

Well, I did invite you. I hope you can come and see yourself.

Alan Moskin 

I know. I heard the place down in New Orleans. You and Jeremy told me, I was there many, many years ago in the beginning. And Tom Hanks and Mr. Spielberg, and I think Gary Sinise was there, they all got involved and they're still doing a wonderful job. I respect what they're doing on behalf of the veterans. But if Krista and I can find the time, I'd love to go down. Because Jeremy told me, "My God, you got covered blocks now, you got a hotel." It's amazing.

Kim Guise

We'd love to have you. We will give you the red carpet, but I have a few more questions.

Alan Moskin

Let me answer one. I said to some of the people from California, "Suppose the kid asks a question that you just somehow didn't cover?" So they had me cover for that. "Well, I can't understand that question. I can't quite answer." So I kind of got a kick out of that because I say, "Are you sure you've covered every possible question?" So they covered that too. So in case it's something that they didn't answer, that's how I get out of that. But I'm glad that you guys are working with the Shoah Foundation. They're doing a great job, and Steven Smith and Bonnie and the others out there, they still stay in touch with me.

Kim Guise

Great. Yeah, I think part of that project...

Alan Moskin

June Villa, I got to get a name in there, June Villa, she always says, "How you doing?" In touch with us. And one other thing, I'm a vice president of the Holocaust Museum and Center for Tolerance and Education and Suffering. We're doing a job in our county and elsewhere. We're trying to also educate the young people, and I want to send kudos out to Paul Golan and Andrea Winograd, my other fellow execs. I want them to know that they're doing a great job. We all are trying to get the word out like you are, what happened back in World War II, that there was a Holocaust and we got to make sure that it ever happens again. So we're very active in Rockton County to get that word out, as well as Westchester County. Also people like Billy Jasper and Julius Sclero. I'm giving them all a plug, because they do a wonderful job in educating the young people about what happened back in World War II, and the Holocaust.

Kim Guise

I mean, thank you. And you are such a busy man, and we appreciate you and your efforts, and the efforts of all of those who are helping us to document and share the stories of the Holocaust and the other lessons from World War II. Do you have a particular message for the young people out there? What do you want your legacy to be as a veteran, Alan?

Alan Moskin 

My legacy? I have a thought in terms of having a legacy, but I might add that a few years back I got very emotional, and I was getting into it and I talk about hate. I don't like the word hate. I said I saw hate with the Hitler Youth. I saw hate with the Waffen SS, not with the German Wehrmacht, but with the Nazis, the hate that they had. We never had the hate. We wanted to win the war and go home. But that hate was something I couldn't understand. I said, "Hate begets hate. I don't want to hear about seeing hate anymore. Sorry." And I start getting emotional. I was speaking at some school in Westchester and all of a sudden I said, "Can we hug each other instead of hate?" I'm a hugger, I like to hug people. And a little Black girl got up, and turned out that she was a part of a singing group.

I didn't know at the time, and she starts singing, and the man says, "Hug, don't hate, you got to hug." And there was the lyrics and everything like that. And everybody came up to me later, gave me a hug, hundreds of kids. And I start using that at the end. And now I'm known as the man, the liberator who says, "Hug, don't hate." And I get letters from a lot of the schools say, "Mr. Baskin, we formed a Hug Don't Hate club in your honor." And I told them, they want to put that on my tombstone. He said, "Hug, don't hate." I'll settle for that because hugging is good and hate begets hate. I say it over and over, I don't want to see hate. You don't hate. I tell my grandchildren, "You don't hate your vegetables. I don't like my vegetables. See, what did the vegetables do to you?"

So you'll have try to make it light, but get rid of the word hate. It's a vicious word. I saw it so close with the Nazis and the hate, and I never understood where that hate comes from. We saw a little bit of that unfortunately in January 6th. And that broke my heart to see, I thought I'd never see anything like that in this country. But hate is still out there in this country too, Kim. We got plenty of hate groups and Ku Klux Klan, the White Nationalist, the Proud Boys. I'm calling it like it is. I want to get rid of that group, I get rid of the hate. Let's be lovers and hug each other. That's a lot better than having that hate because hate consumes hate.

Kim Guise

I'm with you. I want to form a hug, don't hate club here now. So I'll let you know how that goes. Well, I think we want to take a little bit of time and ask some questions that we might have from the audience. And I have one that I see here that ask about relates to your experience as an American Jew fighting in Europe. So, did you feel sort of an extra danger or risk, you mentioned talking about how you knew that Hitler wasn't crazy about the Jews, but you didn't know about the camps. Did you feel that extra risk as an American Jew in Europe?

Alan Moskin

Well, let me put it this way. Well, we got over there, our lieutenant said to myself, and I think there was two other Jewish kids in the platoon, "We don't know what the enemy's going to do." We had dog tags that said H on it, which stood for Hebrew, see for Catholic P for Protestant, that was on your dog tags where you wore your neck. And he said, "Moskin," and I forget the other guys. "We don't know what the Nazis are going to do, if they catch you as a prisoner. So if you want to take your dog tags off and give them to me, I'll hide them." I said, "To hell with that. I'm not taking it off. I'm proud of it. I'm going to leave it on." That was a tough little kid, I guess, whatever. But we didn't know what the Nazis were going to do.

And I heard stories later that some of the prisoners of war that were Jewish weren't treated very nicely. That's hearsay. I don't know. I didn't see it, but I was told that late later on. But no, to be honest with you, I was over there fighting as an American. I mean, I get some questions like this, "Because you saw that these were Jewish people in the concentration camp. Did that upset you more because of being a Jew, they were your brethren?" And I'll be honest with you, I never thought of it that way. To me, these were human beings. I never thought about the fact that they were Jewish or Catholic, that they were human beings treated so badly. That was my, as an 18-year-old American soldier, Jewish, I never thought in terms of being Jewish. Later on, maybe I started to react more about what was going on.

But at that time they were just poor souls, poor human beings, and we wanted to do the best we could and try to help them. But I never really got into it too much that being a Jew, and what's going to happen to me, I felt more like an American. I still do it. And listen, I have to be honest, some of the Orthodox Jewish people, I don't know if they're crazy about that answer, but I have to be honest, I just said, "My God, these poor souls." I never thought that, "Oh my God, they're Jewish." Until later on you were thinking about it. But that's my reaction. These were human beings that were treated like animals, and I didn't care what the religion was or anything else. I just wanted to help and do the best we could. That's my best answer.

Kim Guise

Yeah. Some of the other questions are, how many scouts were with you when you found the camp? Were with your whole company, or were there a lot of you?

Alan Moskin 

The whole lot. My whole company. It was my whole company. It wasn't just, sometimes you hear, "Alan Moskin was the liberator." Listen, I didn't do it myself, for God's sake. I mean, I'm just reciting what happened. I don't want all this credit like I could be an Audie Murphy, a hero or something. I mean, we all did our job. This was our whole outfit, our company that they got in there. I found out later, I didn't know at the time that there was a Black unit, I think a tank outfit that also, Gunskirchen was a very big camp. And they must have been on the other end and the other side, because some of the people that were liberating told me it was a Black soldier that had liberated them. And by the way, I'm in touch now with some, through many years of people that survived Gunskirchen.

Dr. Edith Egar out in California, who is now a psychologist or whatever, an amazing story, what she's doing to help people with PTSD, believe it or not, as a doctor who was in that camp. And everybody I saw, I said, anybody that survived the hell and horror of that camp, I got a good friend from Philadelphia, Mike Hurskovitz, Tanya, his wife, I mean anybody that survived, I said, it's a miracle now. They lived a full life, and they have children and grandchildren. And one lady whose father was in Gunskirchen took, when she saw me over in a group called the March of the Living, she heard that I liberated Gunskirchen.

She goes, "Oh my God, Alan, my father was in Gunskirchen, you got to come to Toronto." So I went to Toronto and met her father and a few others. And I said my piece, and she said something to me, I'll just say this, I never thought of it this way. "Alan, you liberated my father and I'm here, my brother is here, my children are here and they're going to have children." So there's an expression when you liberated one, you liberate the world or something like that. She got me kind of emotional about the fact it wasn't just her father, it was everybody that went down the line after that, that I liberated. But I never thought of it that way. But it's a little scary to think, my God, it's wonderful in a way. But it's amazing with the people that I come across that survive that camp, they deserve so much credit, because that was a living hell to be in that camp. God willing, how they survived and made a life for themselves, kudos to every one of them.

Kim Guise 

Well, how about that for a legacy? I mean, that's a wonderful legacy as a liberator have to be able to see those lives that were made possible. One of our visitors have asked about if you have ever returned to Europe, or ever returned to Austria and visited those areas that you fought in, that you liberated.

Alan Moskin 

Yeah, I went back once with a group called The March of the Living and saw a certain point. But it's like, listen, you can't recreate what we saw. The smell, the dead bodies, the emaciated bodies, they do the best they can. People say, "Oh, I went back to Auschwitz Birkenau with the railroad track," some of the things they show, but how can you ever recreate the stench of the dead bodies that we saw? It's almost impossible. So for me, I went back once with a young group called a Group of the Living many years ago, I think in 2005.

Got in touch with a lot of good friends that I know now in Rockton County that went on that trip, like Paul Adler and Dave [?], and Christelle and others, and Carol Berkman. I remember the camaraderie we had. They'd be speaking about what I remember, but you couldn't recreate what we felt and what we saw back then. It was just impossible. It's something that, you always had to be there to understand the depth of it. I mean, I know they show movies and television, but I don't think they can really bring it back as I remember when I was there as a young 18-year-old soldier. Another thing I want to add, I want to just throw this in. The patriotism was sky-high in World War II, I wish I could bring back that patriotism today. I mean after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941, guys were running to the draft, 14, 16 year olds lying about their age to fight for the country.

I want these young people to know, look, I hope the call never happens. I know mothers don't want their kids to fight. That's normal. My mother didn't want me to go. No mother wants their son to fight. But if the call comes, I want these young people to know, do what we did, get out there and fight for the country. They're living in the greatest country in the world. We're not perfect. We can do better, but we're still the best thing going around. And I tell these young people, not everybody's got a beautiful house and a clean bathroom and a nice bed to sleep. And when I speak to them, when young people going to outhouses, don't know where their next meal is coming from, sometimes they have to be shook up and know how great they have it. Don't take it for granted. Thank their mom and dad every day, and their teachers who go out on the line to do what they're doing.

It's very tough to be a teacher today with the restrictions and all that. So I gave it to them and I tell them, "Get out there and do the right thing." Because they call us the Greatest Generation, my generation? Maybe we were, but one thing we didn't do, we didn't get rid of the hate and it's still out there with the Ku Klux Klan and the Proud Boys and the other wackos. And I want these young kids to know that, and to try to change things for the better, because they're living in the greatest country in the world, and I want them to appreciate that.

Jeremy Collins

Alan and Kim, thank you for this great conversation. I'm going to step in and finish up the Q&A here. This is a pretty specific question, but it seems to be a mother and a son, or a daughter and a grandson of a veteran of a serviceman who was part of the 71st, but was killed in action on April 1st, 1945, which happened to be Easter Sunday. Corporal Robert Reno. It's a specific question, Alan, if you don't recall this or weren't a part of the action, that's fine. But there was a river crossing at Oppenheim in late March of 1945. Do you remember your experiences of that Easter 1945 period?

Alan Moskin

Yes, I do. I didn't know where it was. You got to remember half the time, you're just following orders. You're not sure where you are, you just do what you lieutenant tell you, or your sergeant. But I do remember Bailey, that crossing. People will ask me, "Do I know this fellow or that." No, I don't remember that name. But God willing, I hope they remember him. And as I said, I lost a lot of buddies, in all these outfits. It's always the, "There, but by the grace of God, go I."

As I said many times, I'm not that religious in the real way, but I would think maybe there is a higher power up there because if I was 100 meters to the left or 100 meters to the right, I wouldn't be here. And I often wonder who put me here, how come I wasn't there? And you get a little whacked up in your mind. It's hard to put into words, but unfortunately some guys got it. And I feel bad about every one of them, and I just forget, I was just one of the lucky ones that I'm here talking to you.

Jeremy Collins

Well, to Roberta, who is the daughter of Corporal Reno and Matthew, who is the grandson, God bless for your sacrifice as a war orphan. That's a whole nother topic that we hope to be able to delve into here at the museum. It's an important legacy. Alan, we have a question about the Coburg. This is another specific to your service, the Rhineland and Eastern European campaign. Can you expand on liberating the forced laborers and DPs such as Dutch civilians? Did you encounter any others, or?

Alan Moskin

No, my specific outfit didn't participate in that. You got to remember there were different companies, different platoons, different regiments. So, we were all over different areas. So, I can only remember that the POW camps I talked about and Gunskirchen. But there were other outfits that I found out later. We didn't know how many camps there were at the time. We thought Gunskirchen... Then we found out later, my God, guys start talking about Bergen Belsen and Buchenwald. And I think there was a couple of other, Gusen and Ebensee, which were sub-camps of Mauthausen.

As I said, they went on death marches to go to these sub-camps. And the last thing I heard, Jeremy, was from the museum and what that they got close to 40,000 of these, if you count all the sub-camps, they were 40,000 of these hell holes all over Europe. What a number that is. That's staggering. But every outfit came across one or the other. I didn't even know that there were Black soldiers liberating on the other side of Gunskirchen, I found that later. And it's just, it's hard to tell you that it was just overwhelming that we didn't realize one-on-one until we found out later how many camps there were.

Jeremy Collins

We are up against our hour. I'd like to close with a few general comments from the audience, not so much questions. Margaret says, "Thank you, Mr. Moskin for telling your story. May God bless you with many more years to speak out. My father never talked about his experience in World War II, and your explanation has helped me understand why. I appreciate your candidness and commitment." And Brynn Potter says, "Thank you for your service and willingness to share your story. This is your important legacy." And as Kim mentioned, your legacy will live on for generations, sir, not just through this recorded webinar, but also through the wonderful Dimensions and Testimony, interactive biography that USC Shoah Foundation has put together with you over those long days, and hundreds or thousands of questions. I encourage everyone that can make it down here. We are open. We've been open since Memorial Day of last year, following all the right restrictions and precautions, but it is truly a remarkable experience.

And I'd like to go into the gallery just to watch how the visitors interact and converse with you here, Alan, especially the children. The children seem to be a little shy at first, but then after the first time or two, then they really do feel like they're having a conversation. I'm excited that my grandchildren someday will be able to do that. Kim, I sold you short a little bit. Kim is not just one of our curators. She is the assistant director for curatorial services here as well at the museum, and we are delighted to have you host this wonderful conversation.

Alan, that invitation stands, whether it's wildly... Biography is running through September, or anytime after that. We'd love to get you here and probably put you on stage again to talk to a live audience, and I invite everyone to come on down. Please stay tuned, and check our events calendar on the website for all of our upcoming virtual programs, and let's virtually give a round of applause to Kim Guise and of course, Alan Moskin. Thank you very much for being a part of this, and may you all have a great day and a great weekend.

Thanks for listening. We encourage you to visit nationalww2museum.org/podcasts for more episodes. That is nationalww2museum.org/podcasts. Don't forget to check out the events tab on our homepage at nationalww2museum.org as well, to catch some of these conversations and programs in real time. The museum is marking a special year here in New Orleans. Coming at the end of 2023, we will be unveiling our capstone addition to our campus, Liberation Pavilion. The pavilion will cover the closing months of the war and the post-war years, exploring the links between World War II and today.

Equally important, the museum has the privilege and honor of hosting the 2023 Congressional Medal of Honor Society's annual convention. Taking place in New Orleans from October 31st to November 4th, the convention is one of our country's most prestigious and patriotic events, providing unique opportunities for the public to engage with Medal of Honor recipients. Learn more at CMOHS.org. This series is made possible by the Albert and Ethel Herzstein Charitable Foundation, which supports content like this from the National World War II Museum in New Orleans. Please remember to rate and subscribe. It goes a long way to helping others find this series. I'm Jeremy Collins, signing off.